Scriptural reasoning: How faith can unite us

Michael Wakelin Welcome to this the next set of scriptural reasoning sessions hosted by the Open University under the direction of Dr Jessica Giles. I'm Michael Wakelin, and I'll be acting as facilitator, but the real expertise will be provided by our scriptural reasoning practitioners, who will introduce themselves shortly.

But before we begin, just a word about the practice of scriptural reasoning, it's a relatively recent addition to the crucial work of interfaith dialogue. Three texts from the Hebrew Scriptures, the Qur’an and the New Testament, are chosen on a specific theme. They are read out loud, recited in the original language where possible, relished by all participants, and then discussed in turn and in depth with representatives from the three faiths. The atmosphere is one of hospitality and respect. Differences are acknowledged and welcomed. There is no persuading of others or denying another's view. We learn to improve the quality of our disagreements.

For our session today, we have selected texts on the subject of being created human, against the backdrop of the huge developments in artificial intelligence and people's fears of being taken over by robots.

But before we get to the texts, I'm going to ask the panel to very briefly introduce themselves, if I can come to you first Monawar.

Imam Monawar Hussain Hello. I'm Iman Monawar Hussain, and I'm the Muslim chaplain at Eton College.

Michael Wakelin Adam,

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet I'm Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet. I'm the Rabbi of St Albans Masorti Synagogue.

Michael Wakelin And Catherine,

Very Reverend Catherine Ogle I'm Catherine Ogle, a Christian priest, and my ministry has been in parishes and cathedrals.

Michael Wakelin Aliya.

Aliya Azim MBE I'm Alia Azim, the Interfaith Coordinator of the Al-Khoei Foundation.

Michael Wakelin Trey

Reverend Trey Hall I'm Trey Hall. I'm a Christian minister and the Director of Evangelism and Growth for the Methodist Church in Britain.

Michael Wakelin And finally, Miriam.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie I'm Miriam Lorie, and I'm a rabbi at Kehillat Nashira in Borehamwood.

Michael Wakelin Thank you all very much and, especially thank you for being here.

So, to our text, shall we begin with the words from the Jewish Scriptures found in Genesis, chapter one, verse 26 to 28. Rabbi Miriam, will you read the Hebrew? Monawar, will you read the English translation? And while he's doing that, I'd like you all initially to pick out just one word or phrase that looks particularly interesting to you, and then Rabbi Adam will give a short introduction.

So, Miriam, first of all.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie כו וַיֹּאמֶ ר אֱֹלקים נַעֲשֶ ה אָ דָ ם בְּ צַלְּמֵ נּו כִּ דְּ מּותֵ נּו וְּ יִּרְּ ּדּו בִּ דְּ גַת הַיָם ּובְּ עֹוף הַשָ מַ יִּם ּובַבְּ הֵמָ ה ּובְּ כָל הָאָ רֶ ץ ּובְּ כָל הָרֶ מֶ ש הָרֹּמֵ ש עַל הָאָ רֶ ץ. כז ִּוַיבְּ רָ א אֱֹלקים אֶ ת הָאָ דָ ם בְּ צַלְּמֹו בְּ צֶלֶם אֱֹלקים בָרָ א אֹּתֹו זָכָר ּונְּקֵבָה בָרָ א אֹּתָ ם. כח וַיְּבָרֶ ְך אֹּתָ ם אֱֹלקים וַיֹּאמֶ ר לָהֶם אֱֹלקים פְּ רּו ּורְּ בּו ּומִּ לְּאּו אֶ ת הָאָ רֶ ץ וְּ כִּ בְּ שֻׁהָ ּורְּ דּו בִּ דְּ גַת הַיָם ּובְּ עֹוף הַשָ מַ יִּם ּובְּ כָל חַיָה הָרֹּמֶ שֶ ת עַל הָאָ רֶ ץ.

NB: Please refer to the attached Scriptural reasoning translated PDFs on The Open University Law School website.

Michael Wakelin Thank you very much. Monawar, will you read the English translation while everyone selects their word or phrase.

Imam Monawar Hussain And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. They shall rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the cattle, the whole earth, and all the creeping things that creep on earth." And God created man in His image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them and God said to them, "Be fertile and increase, fill the earth and master it; and rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and all the living things that creep on earth."

Michael Wakelin Thank you very much. And now, Rabbi Adam, would you give your short introduction to the text?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet It sure is a challenge. I think with this text, for those who know its role in Judaism, will know it's hugely significant for a variety of reasons. One is that it introduces to us the whole notion that human beings, in particular, are created in God's image, and we could spend hours on what that means, what that word means, what it even suggests to us - that we in some way resemble God, whether that's physical or visual or something completely different.

But it's also not just about the individual human being - it's not about what it means to be a human being - it's also about humanity as a whole. And, at the moment, when we use words like Anthropocene to talk about our time, and we talk about anthropomorphism, another terrifyingly big word in theology, this is really the root of that whole conversation. Are humans the centre of the universe? Are humans the most important species? If so, is it because of this? And what's our relationship like with the rest of the creatures that make up the natural world? And as a result, with God. We have God. We have ourselves. We have everything else that exists, and it doesn't really spell out to us as precisely as we might like, what that nature looks like, what our nature looks like, and what our relationship with nature is meant to be. So, it leaves us, as is typically the case of the Hebrew Bible, with more questions than answers. But I think they're the right questions to be asking.

Michael Wakelin Fabulous. Thank you. And I want, just before we dive in deeply into the text, I want everyone just to say what their word or phrase was that they picked out to see if there's any synergies in the group. Miriam, what did you land on him?

Rabbi Miriam Lorie ‘Him.’

Michael Wakelin Okay. Trey.

Reverend Trey Hall It's twice in the text. It’s got to be ‘Rule’ for me.

Michael Wakelin ‘Rule’, okay. Monawar.

Imam Monawar Hussain ‘Earth.’

Michael Wakelin ‘Earth.’ And Trey.

Reverend Trey Hall It's got to be ‘image’ for me.

Michael Wakelin And Catherine,

Catherine Ogle ‘them’.

Michael Wakelin Them, okay. And Aliya,

Aliya Azim It was ‘rule’ for me as well.

Michael Wakelin All right, okay. You stuck very much to the one word rule. I actually picked out ‘male and female, He created them’. Which I think is interesting. So, who wants to dive in then and examine their word? Why don't you head in first? Miriam,

Rabbi Miriam Lorie Okay, well, I mean, this is a text that I think feminist readers of the Torah and the Bible, for Christian readers as well, have really poured over alongside a parallel text from Genesis two, the next chapter. And in some ways, this is the better text for feminists, because, as your phrase was, Michael, God created male and female at the same time. But it's interesting how the translator has put ‘Let Us make man in our image and him’, and that's why I picked that out, because really, the Hebrew ‘Adam’ could also be translated as ‘human’. But then that gets us into tricky water in chapter two, where the same word Adam clearly is referring to a male.

Reverend Trey Hall Yeah, I mean Adama means of the Earth, right? Mud, mud creature. Earth, earth person. So, there's a real humility there around being a creature. So, it's what I find really interesting. This this creature from the earth is then given - it sounds like permission, this humble creature to rule or reign over the other creatures of the earth. So, I find that really interesting, like those connections between humility - made from the raw matter of the earth and then given responsibility to reign or rule or have dominion, I find that really a challenge in today's Anthropocene, time around, like how are we different from the other creatures? Are we animals too? You know, animals the non-human animals and us human animals. What is our relationship with other creatures and non-sentient beings, and how do we come to see ourselves as different from them, or different or better, different, and yet still connected? So, as I'm swimming in the sea, I don't just think about this text. I feel this text as the water moves around me and all the other animals. So that's that sense of connection to the other.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet I have to say, I think translation doesn't do us any favours here. That's true of every text, but especially here, because that word, [Inaudible: Hebrew word for conquer it], right, ‘you shall conquer it’. How might it be translated? We can also mean ‘you shall take care of it’. ‘You shall have responsibility for it’. The nuances that can be implied by those words in English are so diverse, but the world that we live in is one where we see humans destroying, conquering, demeaning, the earth, we actually read it backwards. We read our experience backwards into what this says and assume it's telling us that we're meant to do what we're doing. But that's not actually a given.

Imam Monawar Hussain I sense that the text goes beyond, above gender, that, in fact, it's talking about something holy and divine about the human being, you know, men and women, and absolutely right in the sense that if we're creating God's image, then we have that freedom/autonomy, but it comes with huge responsibility too. And so, I suppose, in a sense, questioning, to what extent are we actually living out the image of God in ourselves? Because clearly, we've been made or have been given the power to rule over other things, and to what extent are we being faithful to God in terms of living that power out and the control over the rest of creation.

Michael Wakelin Do you want to come in here, Catherine,

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle I think it's fascinating, this beautiful text, which means so much to us, and lots of us practically know it off by heart, yet it's freighted with controversy. And, actually, I can imagine even greater controversy at the moment, about gender and male and female and sexuality, and how exactly this text has been so used by people in power against people with less power. And, certainly I responded to you, Miriam with the language of ‘him’ and ‘they’ that was my word, because where are women in this text? And I cannot believe that women are not also made in God's image, so we're not just an afterthought. So, actually, the translation I'm used to, I don't know it's more accurate to the Hebrew.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Probably not. I'm afraid.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle And God created humankind, and I think there are some interesting things with the gender in here, in the Hebrew. So somehow God is/has all that within God's self, male and female, and together, men and women are in the image of God. But there's so much controversial potential in this text now that we might not have been aware of 10 or 20 years ago. So, it's extraordinarily freighted, this short piece of scripture.

Michael Wakelin Aliya, do you want to resonate with that?

Aliya Azim Sure, yes, I think the Hebrew word for mercy is rachamem and so that's has a sort of a feminine aspect of God providing for his people. And the attributes of God are ones that we could inculcate to be God like and I don't see a problem between the male and female in this verse, because they're both mentioned, male and female. He created them, and I think the sole aspect is treated equally.

Reverend Trey Hall Yeah, I was just thinking about, ‘made in the image and likeness’, after our own likeness, which is quite a beautiful, sort of high and glorious thing, to be a human made in the image of God, them, him, her, it, you know. And just thinking about in this day and age where we do have responsibility to steward the earth, and what a wonder it is to be a human and yet the mess that we get ourselves into and others into. And so, how do we hold, you know, the obvious evidence for the mess we've, you know, perpetrated on the earth and other species with this really beautiful, glorious humanity. I mean, after the image and likeness of God, that's saying something, isn't it? It's not like God is totally other.

Michael Wakelin Can I bring in Adam? Because you picked out the word ‘image’, didn't you?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Yeah, to me, I mean, there's so many things here, but that's the thing. I feel like that's at the crux of everything else. We talk about gender, we talk about a relationship with nature. What does it mean when it says, ‘In the very beginning, we're made, or human beings are made in the image and likeness of God’? Both those words in Hebrew are difficult words to render accurately. The key one is selam, which is repeated many times, not just here in the book of Genesis, and it's so many things. It's like the best translation, I think. And Miriam correct me if I'm wrong, but it's like, it's the after image. You see something, and you close your eyes and you see the shape of it, but you don't actually see it. It's like something that resembles a real thing. It's a visual, for sure. It's probably closest to like a ghost, right? It looks like the thing, but it's not the thing, and that's such a useful element here, because actually, I do think the Torah is telling us we look like God in some ways. What does that mean? Right? That we look like God, that our physical body maybe has resemblance to some degree of divinity. It allows us to see ourselves differently, perhaps. But it doesn't mean we are God, right? It means we have a resemblance, the way that an after image, a shadow, a ghost, looks like the thing it used to be, but it's not the thing. It's a bit of an illusion. So, we fall into that illusion if we don't take this carefully that we think ourselves to be God, when we're only just the image.

Reverend Trey Hall Is there anything beyond the physical? Like, what's the nature of God beyond the physicality. So, what does it mean? Is it about will? Is it about intelligence? Is it about creativity? Is it about power?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Well, rabbis are annoying and basically because, there's two words here, yeah, they have always insisted, the judicious insisted they mean different things. Because there's no such thing as synonyms in the eyes of the rabbis, if there's a word and another word, each of them describes a different aspect of the meaning. So, Selim is understood to be actually largely a visual in some way, which is obviously treacherous territory for us. But demut, the second one, is more about character, right? About how one behaves, how one acts, and that's the one where the rabbis say, what it means to say we're made in God's likeness, which is demut, is that we behave the way God behaves, where we imitate God's behaviour, and we act in a way, hopefully, in the good ways that God acts in the world.

Michael Wakelin Can you be an annoying Rabbi Miriam and respond to that? Did you agree or not.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie Am I allowed to agree? Yeah, I think that. I think Adam put that really well. Yeah. I'm struggling with the idea of the body as like God having a body. I think you know, later in the mediaeval times, our philosophers said that God has no body, and you know that that would be heresy. And yet, I came across this really lovely idea recently. I just spoke about it on pause for thought, that Rabbi Hillel said, ‘just as the kings of the Roman Empire were made into sculptures and statues, which were washed and adorned and taken great care of, so to us, who are almost like statues, after image of God, we should look after our own bodies, because our body is an image of the creator.’ He created us in the image. So that's another aspect, you know, we've got nature, we've got gender. We've also got the body and now we've got to respect ourselves.

Michael Wakelin Catherine, what was the word you picked out? Was it him?

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle They Yes. Yes. It was the ‘theyness’ of God's image, really, that we're so used to seeing in Christianity, depictions of God as an elderly man with a white beard, that sort of came into life at some point and captured the imagination. But I think that's it's so inadequate obviously trying to depict God in any way with a body, but that the image and likeness of God is ‘they’, rather than ‘him’, and that just seems to just open up a great deal of creativity and imagination that's possible. Then, about what is God's image and where do we see it? I'm also really interested about the first verse saying, ‘Let us make humankind in our image’. That's how I'm used to seeing that translated. Let's make humankind in our image, suggesting the animals are not in the image of God in the same way. And so, what is the difference then? It relates a little bit to what you were saying. What is the difference then between humanity and the animals? That means that God's image is in humanity in a different way to the rest of creation, and what is the difference, then, between us and the animal kingdom that makes that difference, and maybe that's what makes us particularly human as well. Those differences, which I imagine has something to do with thought.

Reverend Trey Hall There are all kinds of wonderful stuff, theological intersections with theological studies and animal studies right now, around consciousness, the capacity to mourn, the capacity to ritualize, learn, and you know, that's not to say that, it's the same. But there is perhaps less of a hard, bold line between non-human, animal consciousness and human consciousness. I mean, I'm not a biologist, but when I, when I come up with my Labrador on the couch, I'm aware that I feel like she's more than just a clump of will and nature and tooth and claw. You know, something else is happening there.

Michael Wakelin I think some people would say their pets are closer to God than some humans.

Imam Monawar Hussain Well, this is such a fascinating conversation, because coming from an Islamic background, we have a verse from the Quran which says, ‘There is nothing like Him’, (laisa kamislihee shai’un 42:11), that God is nothing like his creation. And so, if God is nothing like his creation, how do we understand this verse? And for us, it's a metaphorical understanding, you know, Rumi Jalāl, Rumi, the great Persian poet, says that we're not a drop in the ocean, but we are the ocean in the drop, you know, and so there is something greater about ourselves, and that greatness really is manifestation of the Divine Names in the human being, because we understand God through His divine names. And he, of course, is beyond gender. And so for us, it's a metaphorical understanding, and understanding, you know what it means to actually be God like because that's the whole point about the journey to God, is to try and manifest as many of those names of God - realise them in ourselves, his beauty, his generosity, kindness, justice, all of those things.

Michael Wakelin Aliya, can I bring in your word at the stage? Because what was the word you picked out?

Aliya Azim ‘Rule’

Michael Wakelin Oh yes.

Alia Azim So just to follow on from what Monawar was saying as well, we have what's called a Hadith. Kudsi, where God speaks and the Prophet recites what is not in the Quran, but it says that ‘man draws closer to me by doing supererogatory prayers until I love him. And when I love him, I become the hands with which he does, the tongue with which he speaks, and the eyes with which he sees, and the feet with which he walks.’ So, it's about how close one can be to God by fulfilling what he's asked us to be. And it just shows the sovereign nature where you have ‘rule’. God rules over us, and we have the right to rule over nature, but also thinking about being a steward as well.

Michael Wakelin Okay, rule was your word as well as my word as well.

Reverend Trey Hall Yeah. I mean, I think Adam has pointed out in the Hebrew that it's a multi layered verb, it could mean so many things to have dominion over power, be good stewards of, shepherd, tend, be good husbands of all the things. So, I think I'm personally interested in, I mean, this is the whole thing about, are we reading ourselves back onto the text? This is one of the difficulties reading the text like I would like it if rule meant, you know, have wonderful, creative, generative, non-violent relationships with. You know. Is that what it meant then? Does it? Can the text mean more than it meant 3000 years ago?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet That's a great question. I mean, we can't be too bound by trying to guess at what a text that was written 3000 years ago means, because we don't have the context. We have a system of interpreting and, we have ideas of how do we take some meaning from it? But we also have to remain sceptical of our own perceptions, it's telling, I think we're at risk of going off-piste a bit, but it's telling that, you know, we don't write the Hebrew Bible with the vowels that you see written down here with the dots and the marks and whatever. And as a result, that word that we're spending this time discussing could actually be many different words depending on what vowels are put in there. And it's something that we really value, that our tradition allows for a multifocal reading of the text. Rabbis play with this all the time. When they go ‘actually don't read it that way. Read it this way’, often in very radical and, sometimes very fun ways. And so, we do have a liberty to reread and to read ourselves into it, but we have to remain cognizant of the fact that we're doing that. I think the danger is when we forget that we're doing that, and we think this is what it means, and I'm right and everyone else is wrong, as we all acknowledge, that actually can mean many things, we can have a lot of fun with it.

Reverend Trey Hall Does this feel like a rabbinic conversation today?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Always a little bit more fighting in there, more fight.

Reverend Trey Hall Yeah, in the rabbinic or this one

Rabbi Miriam Lorie In this one

Michael Wakelin We're coming to the end of our time on this particular text. Is there anything that anyone wants to add that hasn't been brought into the conversation so far. Monawar?

Imam Monawar Hussain I suppose the reason I chose ‘Earth’ is because earth, Mother Earth, serves us, nourishes us, gives us sustenance. And whether we can learn from the Earth, whether we can be earth, like in a sense, as humble, and have as much humility as the Earth does, because it's feeding us, and yet what we do to the Earth is so awful.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle I'm really glad you said that, because I was thinking about Trey's first point about Adam from the earth, and that it's all very well, trying to master the earth, and we've done terrible things to it, forgetting that we are of the earth. What we do to the earth, we do to ourselves. So, actually, although I think that the mastery is being really misused by humanity, actually the key is at the beginning, where we are of the earth, and maybe just realising the power.

Imam Monawar Hussain And we have abused that power.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie And the abuse will be at our own expense.

Imam Monawar Hussain Yes, yeah, we're seeing the manifestation of that now, aren't we, in the lives of the climate emergency and so on.

Michael Wakelin Okay, let's now turn to our reading from the Qur’an, which is from The Throngs, which is Surah 39, verses six to seven. And Imam so glad you're here with us and I'd love you to read the Arabic text and then Trey will read the English translation, giving us all a chance to pick out a word or a phrase that we like the look of and then Aliya will do, a short introduction. So, thanks, Imam.

Imam Monawar Hussain Qur’an, The Throngs Sura 39: 6-7:

6 He created you all from a single being, from which He made its mate; He gave you four kinds of livestock in pairs; He creates you in your mothers' wombs, in one stage after another, in threefold depths of darkness. Such is God, your Lord; He holds control, there is no god but Him. How can you turn away? 7 If you are ungrateful, remember God has no need of you, yet He is not pleased by ingratitude in His servants; if you are grateful, He is pleased [to see] it in you. No soul will bear another's burden. You will return to your Lord in the end and He will inform you of what you have done: He knows well what is in the depths of [your] hearts.

English translation: Abdel Haleem

Michael Wakelin Thank you so much, that’s so beautiful. And Trey, if you do the English translation for us, and we'll pick out our words and phrases.

Reverend Trey Hall He created you all from a single being, from which He made its mate; He gave you four kinds of livestock in pairs; He creates you in your mothers' wombs, in one stage after another, in threefold depths of darkness. Such is God, your Lord; He holds control, there is no god but Him. How can you turn away? If you are ungrateful, remember God has no need of you, yet He is not pleased by ingratitude in His servants; if you are grateful, He is pleased [to see] it in you. No soul will bear another's burden. You will return to your Lord in the end and He will inform you of what you have done: He knows well what is in the depths of [your] hearts.

Michael Wakelin Thank you and Aliya, your short introduction, please.

Aliya Azim So, the verse talks about the creation of human beings. Ordinary painters have to paint in a well-lit workplace, but the Creator of mankind, the supreme artist, paints such fascinating paintings in such a strange, dark place. The threefold darkness is also an allusion to how the foetus is formed, wrapped in amniotic fluid, that the uterus and the belly, the same human on the physical side is so insignificant, preserved in absolute darkness, but has the potential to reach a station that can design artificial intelligence.

God punctuates the discussion with rhetorical questions such as, how are you turned away? An expression of amazement as to how one could possibly turn away from the worship of the one who is responsible for all the realities. So, it is still God who bestows human beings with the capacity to fashion technology, but we can be a bit cautious. Earlier in the Qur’an, we look at the story of the golden calf in the absence of Moses, when he made a lowing sound, and that connected it to the idol having real power. And by comparison, we've created AI which has the power to imitate human speech and reasoning. And there's a real risk that we stop using our God given capabilities and rely on artificial means, much in the same way as the Israelites turned away from the one God and began to worship the golden calf in the absence of Moses.

Michael Wakelin Great. Thanks very much. So, I'm going to go around the table again, and you're going to pick up a word or phrase that might have synergy with other people's thoughts as well. Miriam, what was yours?

Rabbi Miriam Lorie ‘They felt ungrateful.’

Michael Wakelin Ungrateful. Yeah. Trey,

Reverend Trey Hall ‘No soul will bear another's burden.’

Michael Wakelin And Monawar,

Imam Monawar Hussain I have the Arabic word ‘nafs’, which is ‘single being’, nafs, ‘soul’.

Michael Wakelin Where is it? Where is that?

Imam Monawar Hussain So, the first line, خَلَقَكُم مِّن نَّفْسٍ وَاحِدَةٍ He created you all from a single being, from a single soul.

Michael Wakelin Okay. Adam?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet ‘The depth of your hearts.’

Michael Wakelin Okay. And Catherine?

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle Yes, I've also chosen ‘depth’.

Michael Wakelin Right, and Aliya.

Aliya Azim ‘The heart.’

Michael Wakelin All right, why don't we start with the depths then since two of you picked that out. What would you like to dive into in there?

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle I wasn't familiar with this text before, and I was really taken with how it takes us in a very short space from this depths of darkness, which I thought would be the womb within the body, it takes us from the womb, where we begin to judgement at the end of our life. So, in this short space we're sort of zoomed through all of our whole lives. Yeah, it just seemed beautifully, extraordinarily written, that journey of our life from the depths of darkness to our own depths, really, to the depths of God. Yeah, extraordinary.

Michael Wakelin Adam. Did that mean the same to you?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Yes, similar. I think I was reflecting on this in particular, in light of the previous texts we look at. And there's a sense from the beginning of this to the end that though we talk about depth, we're talking about, like, almost like nesting dolls, like one thing inside of the other, the three-fold depths of darkness, really interesting, the way you explained it, Aliya, but it's also with the starting about, nafs, enough about a single being is, you know, every single human being is embedded within the previous one and the previous one and the previous one, and you have this sense of depth that's not about going inwards to ourselves, rather about going kind of almost back in time and, you know, turning the clock back to where it began, hard not to think about that sense of this unfolding of history through human action.

Michael Wakelin And what is this a crucial passage in Muslim

Imam Monawar Hussain Oh, absolutely, it's crucial in so many different ways. I mean, in one sense, it's taking all this rich diversity to one source. And in a sense, there is human diversity, but there is also unity as well. And often, sometimes, certainly in our world today, we seem to forget that there's more trying to divide and separate rather than unify. And I use this verse actually, just to remind people that we're all part of the same human family, and so in that respect, but also the sense of gratitude. How grateful are we for what we have, whether it's good, health, friendships, relationships, family, the water that we can just suddenly turn the tap and have water, as so much of our world and our fellow human beings don't have access to water or food and so on, but things that we just take for granted. And so part of faith actually is being grateful, having gratitude, and then ultimately, that sense of, you know, we discussed in the previous text about ‘rule’ that ultimately we're going to have to account for how we act now in the world, and that there is that sense of being in front of God and saying, and having to answer for that control or power or position or wealth or whatever we've been given. How did we actually live that out?

Reverend Trey Hall I think that was what was really interesting to me. There are so many interesting things about this text. And as you said, Catherine sort of this zoom from the origin to the end. What starts with this deep connectedness we come from one soul, the nesting dolls.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Wonderful. Not just in ourselves now, but back through time. But I was really interested in how the text seems to sort of move from that unity towards this hyper-individualism. So the word that came out for me was ‘no soul will bear another's burden’, which felt to me as the first time reading this text like a little weird, given if we come from one place, why are we all judged hyper-individualistically, you know, why doesn't my soul bear some of your burden and vice versa? So, I found that really, really interesting. And I'm sure there are nuances in the Arabic that I'm not getting, but I found that curious juxtaposition.

Michael Wakelin Miriam, you picked ‘ungrateful’.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie Yeah. And Monawar opened up the idea of gratitude so beautifully. And I don't know if anyone's seen the cartoon of two twins in utero having a conversation and saying, ‘Do you believe in the mother and do you believe in life after birth?’ And it really reminds me of that - this idea that we and, you know, again, in the three-folds, you know, padding that we have around us. How easy it is as humans not to kind of take a step back and look at the big picture and think about how, you know how, miraculous it all is, how small we are in the scheme of things, and to see ourselves as the centre of our own universe. So, the idea of on gratitude, and it also really opened up in connection with the previous text, the idea of our connection to God. God has no need of you, whereas in the previous text, there seemed to be quite a kind of needy connection that God has made these mini ‘me’s out there starting to open up together.

Reverend Trey Hall That definitely stood out to me as well. The contrast that, like the first text, God has assigned us a role. We've got a job to do, or however we do it, you know, well or poorly, we're agents of the Divine, and as a result, God very much seems to need us, at least in the superficial meaning. But it really stresses here in the Arabic, and it says this as a rhetorical question, right? If you're ungrateful, remember God doesn't need you. And I wonder how that's meant to inspire gratitude, that if you feel ungrateful, you're meant to reflect on the fact that God doesn't need you, and then you feel and to think, well, I need God, or is it meant to make you reflect on your actions? I'm not sure.

Imam Monawar Hussain There's also a sense of agreeing to disagree, that there are certain theological or doctrinal questions that we as people of faith will have different perspectives, but ultimately, that's fine, you know, God will tell you at the end of the day where you differed on and the idea of sort of not carrying anyone else's burdens is that sense of personal responsibility that we really are responsible for our own personal action and must take personal responsibility. So, you know, whatever different positions and so on that we might have on the earth, ultimately, we will have to face the consequence of how we act. And so, you know from the very start as kids, the sense that even if you waste water or food, all of that you're going to have to account for, you know, and so do not be wasteful, is another aspect to this. And it's really just saying, ‘Look, you know, gratitude, but also just remember that all of the goodness and all the things that you enjoy, you're going to be held to account for it.’ And that means that your kind of action and work in the world is more responsible.

Michael Wakelin Trey is trying to come in.

Reverend Trey Hall So, the accountability you mentioned. First of all, I think the difference is really interesting. So, I'm always like, let's talk about the differences, because I find them really fascinating. Not just the sort of lowest common denominator, if we can all get together on love, but let's talk about the difference - fascinating. It's what ‘the judgement’ or ‘the accountability’ is, not just according to the text, but what we've done. Adam had mentioned, ‘He knows well what is in the depth of your hearts.’ So does that not only refer to action, but also attitude, intent, quality. So, it's like you could have done everything right, but if in your heart is hatred and vitriol and whatever - is that part of the judgement? Maybe accountability.

Imam Monawar Hussain You’ve touched on something so crucial and significant in Islamic theology, which is that actions are by intention. That, for example, if I'm a very wealthy person, a philanthropist, and I'm giving lots of money out now, what am I doing that for? And on the Day of Judgement, the philanthropist will say, you know, God will ask him, ‘What did you do with all the wealth I gave you?’ And he or she will say, ‘I gave it to charity and all these good causes and so on’, but it will not be accepted because he or she gave that money for the pleasure of other people to show off and to display their good actions or whatever. But ultimately, they weren't doing that for the pleasure of God. God knows what's in our hearts. Aliya, could you, would you like to add to that?

Aliya Azim Yeah. So, you will be judged by your intentions, all your actions that you do will be regarded in that manner. And, also, the heart is something that people can relate to. And you could say someone has a heart of gold, for example. So gold is the only metal, the elixir of all the metals that's found native in nature. So, we've got to try and purify our hearts and make sure that all our actions are with the right intentions, and then that's reflected in you – you sort of remove the rust away from your heart and reflect godly attributes from looking at the previous verses. So that's something we should be wary of.

Imam Monawar Hussain Basically, we can fool each other, but we can't fool God.

Michael Wakelin Amen, yeah, we practically all agree on that.

Reverend Trey Hall Does that mean, though, I'm curious. Does that mean that you're judged on your thoughts, on if you intend something but don't do it? Is that right?

Imam Monawar Hussain That's a really good one, Adam, because if you, if you intend a good, you will get a reward for that, even though you might not have done that. But if you intend an evil, and you don't do it, you don't still get into trouble. You're not in trouble. No. So the point is that for a good intention, you get a reward. But for a bad intention, there is no accountability unless you do that act, and also ..

Aliya Azim If you do a good action, you get a tenfold increase in reward. If you do one bad action, you only get that one sort of..

Reverend Trey Hall Definitely not equally weighted. Good counts for a lot more than bad.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet What's the difference between an intention and a thought pattern?

Imam Monawar Hussain Well, ‘niyya’, ‘intention’, is something that is central to our religious practice, because it gets us to clarify why we're doing something. So, before we actually do our formal prayer, we make an intention and before we give donation, charitable donation, we make an intention that this is solely for the pleasure of God. So ‘niyya’, intention is something that's really critical, and ultimately, it's about trying to create sincerity in all our actions, that everything that we do is to gain the pleasure of God.

Michael Wakelin So, Aliya, you thoughtfully introduced the idea of artificial intelligence into your introduction. What does this text say about artificial intelligence?

Aliya Azim So, man has the capability to develop that artificial intelligence, but we've got to always be aware that it is God who's given us the grace to do it? And if you look at anything produced by AI, for example, you can easily detect sort of the lack of compassion in the wording. And we need to be wary of the more. You know what, what are you going to do with saving time and having more. So many people are losing their jobs at the moment because of AI. And, you know, is that really the kind of world we want? I'm a teacher, and I notice that so many of my students are using AI to do their homework. You know, where's their critical thinking going? And if we're so dependent on technology - we should really just be depending on what God has given us - intelligence.

Imam Monawar Hussain The other thing that struck me about this verse was when I mentioned the heart. So, this is the heart that really opens up the human being to the metaphysical, and that's unique to human beings. We can have artificial intelligence and so on, but it can never replace that spirit, that God breathed into Adam and that we receive as well in the womb of our mother. And it's that spirit that makes us uniquely human and unique as well amongst all creation, that there's a receptacle within us to kind of experience that Divine Being.

Michael Wakelin Catherine wants to chip in

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle Yes, I'm wondering how that relates. I think I maybe chose the wrong word, because I've actually become more and more fascinated with ‘bearing one another's burdens’. ‘No soul will bear another's burden’. And I love it because it's really honest about the fact that we will have burdens in life, and it's our responsibility to carry our own. I think that's what I'm, but that equally, people's burdens will be different. Will their burden be formed from the womb throughout their life. What is that burden? I don't know whether machines have burdens, but often burdens are the thing we act out of inappropriately, but it might be the thing that fuels it. Might be a burden of longing for justice or whatever the burden is. Maybe that's also about our human uniqueness, is our actual burden?

Imam Monawar Hussain Well, the first thing we teach in leadership development is personal responsibility. And if you want to bring about change and realise your dreams, it comes from you taking personal responsibility.

Reverend Trey Hall The question around artificial intelligence, then is – is it created in the three-fold depths of darkness? Can it be held accountable for the things that it does? Is it responsible? You know, can artificial intelligence show the leadership you're talking about? Monawar, I think these are the questions. I mean, I would say, No, you know, but others might disagree with that.

Michael Wakelin And do you … an artificial intelligence can pretend to, I imagine it can sort of copy.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet I mean, to briefly take us back to the first text. I've been reflecting a lot separately about what AI means for us as Jews, because I think we've done what Genesis described God as doing, largely, which is created something that resembles us but isn't us. And that distinction of like, what does it mean to be now in the role of creator and not created vis-a-vis something which is like our own shadow. It can actually fool many people and seem human, and the so-called Turing test is nearly a thing of the past. But is it the real thing? Is it like a statue of the god, or is it like an image that occurs afterwards, or ghost or something that once lived. Is it just us doing the same thing that God once did to us? And if so, what does that put us in that chain of being that we've been talking about throughout, from the beginning to the end, from the top to the bottom, we now are not just the end result, but we maybe are taking part in creating something else - so kind of terrifying and exciting. I think it's easy to be very down on AI, and there's lots of reasons to, but it's also kind of exciting. Like, what does it mean for us to be in that position? What power does that give us when it comes to what it means to be responsible for it?

Michael Wakelin So, let's now turn to our Christian text, which is from the New Testament. We don't tend to read the passage in Greek, since most Christians don't really use Greek in our regular worship. So, Miriam will you read the English translation for us so that we can select a word or a phrase we like the look of and then Trey will give a short introduction to the passage.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie From 1 Corinthians 15: 42 to 49.

It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus, it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Michael Wakelin Thank you, Miriam. Trey.

The Reverend Trey Hall Right, so, this is from a letter that was written by a guy called Paul, who was a convert from Judaism to Christianity. He was a theologian and also a church planter. He started churches across the Roman Empire and Asia Minor. He started this church himself in Corinth and Greece, and he is writing to them with pastoral and theological advice.

The question we ask these days a lot is, ‘Do I have a body, or am I a body?’. And this was a question that was really part of the early first century kind of conversation. There was a saying in Greek, ‘sōma sēma’, my body is a grave, or my body is a tomb. So, sort of popular conventional wisdom would have been in Corinth that Paul is writing and sort of saying, well, actually, perhaps it's more complex than that, that the physical body is deeply, deeply connected to the spiritual body. They are a unity. They are held together, somehow not split, but held together. And he talks about these different representations, or archetypes, the first Adam, the earth, muddling that we've been talking about earlier in Genesis, which is our origin as humans, but also looking to the second Adam, or the final Adam, who is known by Christians as Jesus, and is talking about us as human beings, our destiny or our goal. So, this whole sense of mud and spirit being held together, not just in these two figures, the first human and the last human, so to speak, but also for all of us. That this reality is all of us. Later writing to his church, he says, ‘Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not die, but we shall be changed’, and this is the essential mystery of those things being held together.

Michael Wakelin Thanks very much, Trey, so let me first glean your word or phrase that stuck out for you. Miriam?

Rabbi Miriam Lorie ‘Sown.’

Michael Wakelin Monawar

Imam Monawar Hussain ‘Physical body?’

Michael Wakelin ‘Physical body’ Adam,

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet ‘Life giving spirit’

Michael Wakelin Catherine

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle ‘Body’.

Michael Wakelin Same as Monawar, Aliya?

Aliya Azim ‘Spiritual body’

Michael Wakelin And Trey

Reverend Trey Hall ‘Also.’

Michael Wakelin ‘Also’. Okay, so let's as we start off with ‘physical body’ and ‘body’ and dive a little bit into that. What struck you about that?

Imam Monawar Moffet Well, I think it's, in a sense, talking about the great miracle of the body itself. It just struck me as that's yeah. I probably have to think about that a bit more.

Michael Wakelin Let's, …., let's talk about it around it. Catherine, do you want to say?

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle As you might know, St Paul is the most extraordinary radical thinker, and this is really early Christian theology, some of the most, the earliest theology, Christian theology, in the Bible before the Gospels are written. So, this is St Paul working with really kind of plastic, fluid ideas.

I always think, and I often think, Paul, I wish you'd had a second draft, you know, because this is quite hard. At other times, Paul seems quite negative about bodies and about the physicalness of being human. At other times, absolutely welcoming it, just as sometimes he seems to not really know what to do with women. But at other times, is incredibly radical, saying there are no barriers between any of us. We're all one in Christ. So, for me, I've always got a complicated relationship with Pauline writings, but here this is a genuinely moving, this talk about physical bodies and spiritual bodies and what that means for humanity made in God's image. So well done, Paul. Other times, he's really odd about bodies, isn't he?

Michael Wakelin As the Christian in the room, Trey.

Reverend Trey Hall I know someone like that myself, you know? So, I see him as someone who is, we say, in the church, undergoing the good news, undergoing the gospel. He's in transition. He's showing us he's testifying to his change as he writes all these different letters in real places. The whole thing about the body, physical and spiritual. We were talking earlier about God having a body, which is a challenge theologically in some religions, but for Christians, obviously God does have a body, at least some part of God, or some way of talking about God showing up in the physical body of Jesus, you know, so it's interesting that Christians have sometimes been really disembodied when we have as part of the centrality of our faith, is around the human body.

Michael Wakelin Do you think Paul should have had a second draft?

Trey Hall Well, I couldn't say I like this. I like this text quite a bit.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Can I ask a question of it?

Michael Wakelin Of course.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet I genuinely don't know what a spiritual body is. It seems like an oxymoron. The body is the body, and spiritual is not the body. So, what's a spiritual body?

Reverend Trey Hall Well, as with rabbinic texts, there's lots of thought about this, you know, and generally refers to the body after the resurrection. Okay, so there is the earthly body, mortal, and then the body post death raised into..

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet This is chronological, now and later

Reverend Trey Hall Now and later, okay, yeah.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet They're not coexisting at the same time. You don't have a physical body and a spiritual body simultaneously. Or you do.

Reverend Trey Hall Well, time is also a weird thing, because this thing that happened, the resurrection, sort of set into reality, metaphysically, Christians would say something that is timeless. So, in some sense, even now, I am a human being, with what's to come in me already because of what's happened in Jesus Christ. So, it's quite mystical, which is one of the reasons I like Paul. It's not only chronological, like one day I will resurrect in the spiritual body, though I believe I will, but that is also somehow now present in me.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Triple darkness,

Reverend Trey Hall Triple darkness, triple light. Altogether.

Very Reverend Catherine Ogle It's a brilliant question, and I think it's also that Paul says - this is our future, but we're to try to live it now. So, what will we be like in heaven? We're not sure, but somehow bodies are also part of heaven. It's all impossible, but we have glimpses of it.

Reverend Trey Hall There is the Feast of the ascension, where Jesus's body, resurrected body, went to heaven. So, sort of you're saying Catherine like now, there is materiality in the heavenly realm, there is a body there. So, Christians would say we believe in the resurrection of the dead as part of one of our creeds. And that's not just the resurrection of Jesus, but we believe somehow the resurrection of all of our bodies.

Michael Wakelin Okay, I want to come to Monawar because you picked up on physical

Imam Monawar Hussain Yeah. I mean, there's something about the physical body. It really is a living miracle and, I suppose it relates to our sense of identity. You know, are we the same in a spiritual body as we were in the physical body? And to what extent does the physical define us? And to what extent does the spiritual define us - if we're both on separate planes. So, for me, it's more the physical body, and without the physical, you cannot have the spiritual. And that's an all-in-one kind of thing.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie That's why the word that jumped out for me was ‘sown’. It was the idea that when we're in a body, we're almost like a seed in the ground that's growing what's going to come afterwards. And I love that idea. I'd always kind of been schooled in the dualistic idea of the body, as in the soul, and the soul is the casement in the house, and hadn't gone as far as the grave, but, you know, souls in bodies. But this is really different. It's very intertwined. And it's saying that actually, our soul is really impacted by its time in the soil of the body, or, you know that in the seed that's growing, and we grow as souls through the bodies we're in - really loving this. And I don't know about the rest of Paul, so I've got no baggage.

Michael Wakelin Do you want to bring in your life-giving spirit thought here Adam?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Yeah, there's so many incredible phrases. I mean, I guess, I suspect it is helpful … your introduction Trey. I wasn't actually sure at first reading whether I was meant to read the last Adam as a reference to Jesus as a non-reader of the New Testament. I'm never really sure what's the reference and what is it, but it's interesting that, to the point we made on the previous text in the Qur’an, that Jesus goes from being a created thing, a man of dust, to being a creator thing, right? A man, a man of heaven, right? And a life-giving spirit. Something that was created becomes something that does creating. And it's that interesting switch about what it means to be human. I know there's been literally wars fought in the Christian Church, right about is Jesus human? Is Jesus divine? Is he both? Is he neither? Is he somewhere in between? And I don't pretend to know or understand the distinctions, but it's clearly the crux of this whole issue about being human is - how much are we a thing of dust and dirt and earth, and how much everything of God and spirit and heaven. And you know, where's the balance in that.

Michael Wakelin Aliya would you bring your thoughts into the mix?

Aliya Azim Yes, so I chose the spiritual body as it's completely infused in the physical body. And you know, one can't live with, well - the spiritual body can live without the physical body, because it will then go on into the afterlife. And it's almost immortal, in a way. But in this phase, it has to have that physical body, which is interesting. And the fact you chose ‘sown’, I thought, that also emphasises darkness and how a seed grows, for example. Its also got that slow development.

Michael Wakelin Yes, and Trey, I noticed that you picked up on also.

Reverend Trey Hall Yes, I just love also, the conjoining, born of the image of the man of dust and also bearing the image of the man of heaven at the same time. It's not that when one is more, the other is less. So, when you're more, born of the image of men, an image of dust, and you're less spiritual. They are at the same time, 100%, which is this mystery, right? And it is. It is a mystery. What does that mean? It's not scientific. Can you put two pounds of coffee into the same coffee. No, but you can in this kind of thing. So, also together at the same time. I think it's really interesting. Jesus, we believe, was born of the Virgin Mary. This is the old, old language, right? So, born in, to use the language from the Qur’an, the threefold darkness surrounded by the amniotic fluid of Mary, you know? So, in a human, he was born of Mary, human. But also, we believe the spirit was with Him, the Holy Spirit. And it made me think of the other texts in Genesis two, I guess, where the mud creature is formed, and then God breathes into the mud creature, God's breath. So even from the beginning, we would say there is spirit and mud together. So, more of the mystery of those things. So, it's not only like at the beginning, just mud and at the end, just spirit. From the beginning, Christians would say spirit and mud together.

Michael Wakelin I wonder if this in terms of thinking about artificial intelligence, whether this really is the division between humanity and machine, because machine can't have spirit. It is nuts and bolts and chips.

Reverend Trey Hall And I guess it depends on what you mean by spirit. You know.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Maybe the question is, at what point does a machine have spirit? And if that's the case, is there a moment where we acknowledge that this is now different than it was before? Can we breathe life into it the way that life is breathed into us? I'm not suggesting we can. But think it's a valid question, considering the way in which things are developing.

Imam Monawar Hussain I think the fear is that AI will begin to, if it doesn't already, have consciousness. And once that happens, then you know - is that the spirit?

Reverend Trey Hall I heard a lecture on this last week. I am not a scientist, but I heard a lecture that Aliya also heard about how, basically, Adam, having reflected on it,

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Probably not

Reverend Trey Hall Basically a series of algorithms that sucks in all the information, and puts out like nice nuggets of information. So it's not really, there's no sense of consciousness at all, and the guy who was talking about it said, that would be a huge leap theologically, so it feels like a huge leap theologically to imagine – is it sui generis? Or would there have to be some sort of bestowal of a gift from above, from us, from God?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Well, yeah, scientists can't answer, right? That's one of the great questions science, where does consciousness come from in ourselves? And at the same time, we're trying to answer that, we're trying to answer, you know, these other things: consciousness, and the two questions are interdependent. I'd just say it's maybe a little bit, you know, we've gone away from the text, perhaps, but there's a well standing Jewish legend of the ability that rabbis, through bit of magic and the right words, can create a being out of dirt. A Golem, a creature made out of mud. And it's our playing with this story of saying, ‘can we do what God did’? Can we take some mud and shape it into a human shaped thing and use some letters to give it a form of activity or consciousness. And it always goes badly - right? All the stories are about the Golem going haywire or something happening that needs to be interrupted. And all of them ultimately reinforce the distinction between a living thing which has a spirit of God in it and something which happens to look like a living thing. And there's probably some wisdom in that for us - that is we're getting confused, maybe between things that resemble a living thing, things that resemble us. But maybe, like you said, Trey, maybe they're fundamentally just a bunch of algorithms that, you know, do a good job of imitating us the way that we might do a good job of imitating the divine if we listen to the instructions given.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle But maybe, also, the text holds something of an answer for us, because the reason St Paul is writing to the Corinthians, well, there'll be many reasons, but one of them is he's heard that they're behaving badly, interesting. So, they've already not being the kind of Christians he thinks that they ought to. They're not behaving in the way they should. So, rebuke, there's always rebuke, but, it's but again, it's what you said is actually reassuring that the church has never got it right and is in constant need of being recreated, remade, reborn, as are we all. So, what I wanted to say really, was that as human beings, the spiritual aspect of ourselves, which enables us to connect with the holiness God, whatever language we use, can also recreate us as human beings. We are able to be recreated if we're listening, if we're willing, if we're asking God, if we're seeking to be obedient to God. So, when we go wrong, we can be put right again. We can be remade always - that's always open to us as human beings. That's very different to a programmed artificial intelligence that learns but, is only ever the sum total of what's been put into it by human beings. So, it's the god-like quality of human beings, spiritual bodies, I think. But there's always a lesson in St Paul, because he's always having to rebuke people for something or the other.

Michael Wakelin It's true.

As we draw these conversations to an end around all three of the texts. I wonder if there's anyone around the table who has a particular way of kind of linking the text together. And what does this say for humanity as the artificial intelligence grows and becomes ever more scary for some people, or exciting, as Adam said, for others. But can we draw any wisdom from these ancient writings for the modern day?

Reverend Trey Hall I think there are questions in all the texts around dependency, independency, interdependency. So, our own power is that from ourselves? Is that from God? How we depend on others' power? So those kinds of questions, so which is about being a person? Am I a person by myself? Can I only be a person in relationship with others, other beings? So, I think that's when we talk about artificial intelligence. I think it brings in those questions of, like, interplay, exchange. So, I see that sort of working in all the texts in different ways.

Imam Monawar Hussain I sense that what the texts are telling us is that we're much more than our physical selves. There is something else deep within us that is open. It's beyond our physical body, it’s metaphysical, and it opens us to a something far greater than we can imagine, and that our fulfilment lies not only just in the physical, but also something beyond which is spiritual.

Michael Wakelin Is there a Jewish summary as well?

Rabbi Miriam Lorie I agree that the God bit and the spiritual bit unites all these texts and is something that is hard to see with AI. Can AI ever believe? Could AI ever have faith? Could AI at first feel spiritual? The other thing that I noticed that is a thread between the texts, a kind of, not just human beings, but human ‘becomings’, the idea that, you know, the seed growing and the physical body that becomes a spiritual body, the threefold darkness that comes out into the light, the idea that we are given responsibility to fill the earth and to rule it, master it, however you see it. So, we're not just learning like robots, but we're becoming something very human way.

Michael Wakelin Well. Thank you all very much for taking part in this scriptural reasoning session, and it's a grateful thanks to all of you. Imam Monawar Hussain, Aliya Azim, Reverend Trey Hall, Very Reverend Catherine Ogle, Rabbi Miriam Lorie and Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet. Thanks all for being with us. I'm Michael Wakelin, and until next time, goodbye

Michael Wakelin Welcome to another scriptural reasoning session hosted by The Open University under the direction of Dr Jessica Giles. I'm Michael Wakelin, and I'll be acting as facilitator. But as usual, the real expertise will be provided by our scriptural reasoning practitioners, who will introduce themselves shortly.

Scriptural reasoning puts scripture at the heart of the conversation. Three texts from the Hebrew Scriptures, the Qur’an and the New Testament, are chosen on a specific theme. They are read out loud, recited in the original language where possible, and then discussed in turn and in depth with representatives from the three faiths. For our session today, we've selected texts on the subject of reconciliation, relevant to a world ridden with so many conflicts and divisions. But before we get to the text, I'm going to ask the panel to very briefly introduce themselves. So first up Monawar.

Imam Monawar Hussain I am Monawar Hussain, a Muslim teacher Eton College

Michael Wakelin Catherine.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle My name is Catherine Ogle and I'm a Christian priest, and I've spent a lifetime of ministry in parishes and cathedrals.

Michael Wakelin Trey

The Reverend Trey Hall I'm Trey Hall. I'm a Christian minister, and I'm director of evangelism and growth for the Methodist Church in Britain.

Michael Wakelin Aliya.

Aliya Azim Aliya Azim, interfaith coordinator of the Al-Khoei Foundation.

Michael Wakelin And Adam.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet I'm the Rabbi of St Albans Masorti Synagogue and also Director of Strategy for Masorti Judaism.

Michael Wakelin And Miriam.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie I'm Miriam Lorie, and I'm a rabbi at Kehillat Nashira in Borehamwood.

Michael Wakelin So, friends, shall we begin with the words from the Jewish scriptures, which are found in Genesis, chapter 33 verses one to seven and Rabbi Adam, if you'll graciously read us the Hebrew and then Aliya, will you read the English translation. And I'd like all of us around the table to pick up just one word or phrase that really strikes you as particularly interesting. And then Rabbi Miriam will give a short introduction to the passage. So, Rabbi Adam.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Hebrew Bible Genesis 33: 1-17

3 He himself went on ahead and bowed low to the ground seven times until he was near his brother. 4 Esau ran to greet him. He embraced him and, falling on his neck, he kissed him; and they wept. 5 Looking about, he saw the women and the children. 'Who,” he asked, “are these with you?” He answered, “The children with whom God has favored your servant.” 6 Then the maids, with their children, came forward and bowed low; 7 next Leah, with her children, came forward and bowed low; and last, Joseph and Rachel came forward and bowed low; 8 And he asked, “What do you mean by all this company which I have met?” He answered, “To gain my lord’s favor.” 9 Esau said, “I have enough, my brother; let what you have remain yours.” 10 But Jacob said, “No, I pray you; if you would do me this favor, accept from me this gift; for to see your face is like seeing the face of God, and you have received me favorably. 11 Please accept my present which has been brought to you, for God has favored me and I have plenty.” And when he urged him, he accepted. 12 And [Esau] said, “Let us start on our journey, and I will proceed at your pace.” 13 But he said to him, “My lord knows that the children are frail and that the flocks and herds, which are nursing, are a care to me; if they are driven hard a single day, all the flocks will die. 14 Let my lord go on ahead of his servant, while I travel slowly, at the pace of the cattle before me and at the pace of the children, until I come to my lord in Seir.” 15 Then Esau said, “Let me assign to you some of the men who are with me.” But he said, “Oh no, my lord is too kind to me!” 16 So Esau started back that day on his way to Seir. 17 But Jacob journeyed on to Succoth, and built a house for himself and made stalls for his cattle; that is why the place was called Succoth.

English translation: JPS

.ג ִ וְ הּוא עָבַר לִפְ נֵיהֶם וַישְ תַ חּו אַ רְ צָה שֶ בַע פְ עָמִ ים עַד גִ שְ תֹו עַד אָ חִ יו .ד ִ וַיָרָ ץ עֵשָ ו לִקְ רָ אתֹו וַיְחַ בְ קֵהּו וַיפֹּל עַל ִ צַּוָארָ ו וַי ִ שָ קֵהּו וַיבְ ּכּו .ה ִוַישָ א אֶ ת עֵינָיו וַיַרְ א אֶ ת הַנָשִ ים וְ אֶ ת הַיְלָדִ ים וַיֹּאמֶ ר מִ י אֵ לֶה לְָך וַיֹּאמַ ר הַיְלָדִ ים אֲשֶ ר חָנַן אֱֹלקים אֶ ת עַבְ דֶ ָך .ו וַתִ גַשְ ןָ הַשְ פָחֹות הֵנָה וְ יַלְדֵ יהֶן וַתִ שְ תַ חֲוֶיןָ .ז וַתִ גַש גַם ִ לֵאָ ה וִ ילָדֶ יהָ וַישְ תַ חֲוּו וְ אַ חַר נִגַש יֹוסֵ ף וְ רָ חֵל ִוַישְ תַ חֲוּו .ח וַיֹּאמֶ ר מִ י לְָך ּכָל הַמַ חֲנֶה הַזֶה אֲשֶ ר פָגָשְ תִ י וַיֹּאמֶ ר לִמְ צֹּא חֵן בְ עֵינֵי אֲדֹּנִי .ט וַיֹּאמֶ ר עֵשָ ו יֶש לִי רָ ב אָ חִ י יְהִ י לְָך אֲשֶ ר לְָך .י וַיֹּאמֶ ר יַעֲקֹּב אַ ל נָא אִ ם נָא מָ צָאתִ י חֵן בְ עֵינֶיָך וְ לָקַחְ תָ מִ נְחָתִ י מִ יָדִ י ּכִ י עַל ּכֵן רָ אִ יתִ י פָנֶיָך ּכִ רְ אֹּת פְ נֵי אֱֹלקים וַתִ רְ צֵנִי .יא קַח נָא אֶ ת בִ רְ כָתִ י אֲשֶ ר הֻבָאת לְָך, ּכִ י חַנַנִי אֱֹלקים וְ כִ י יֶש לִי ִ כֹּל וַיפְ צַר בֹו ִוַיקָח .יב וַיֹּאמֶ ר נִסְ עָה וְ נֵלֵכָה וְ אֵ לְכָה לְנֶגְ דֶ ָך .יג וַיֹּ אמֶ ר אֵ לָיו אֲדֹּנִי יֹּדֵ עַ ּכִ י הַיְלָדִ ים רַ ּכִ ים וְ הַצֹּאן וְ הַבָקָר עָלֹות עָלָי ּודְ פָקּום יֹום אֶ חָד וָמֵ תּו ּכָל הַצֹּאן .יד יַעֲבָ ר נָא אֲדֹּנִי לִ פְ נֵי עַבְ דֹו וַאֲנִי אֶ תְ נָהֲלָה לְ אִ טִ י לְרֶ גֶל הַמְ לָאכָה אֲשֶ ר לְפָנַי ּולְרֶ גֶל הַיְלָדִ ים עַ ד אֲשֶ ר אָ בֹּא אֶ ל אֲדֹּנִי שֵ עִ ירָ ה .טו וַיֹּאמֶ ר עֵשָ ו אַ צִ יגָה נָא עִ מְ ָך מִ ן הָעָם אֲשֶ ר אִ תִ י וַיֹּאמֶ ר לָמָ ה זֶה אֶ מְ צָא חֵן בְ עֵינֵי אֲדֹּנִי .טז וַיָשָ ב בַיֹום הַהּוא עֵשָ ו לְדַ רְ ּכֹו שֵ עִ ירָ ה .יז ִ וְ יַעֲקֹּב נָסַ ע סֻּכֹּתָ ה וַיבֶן לֹו בָיִת ּולְמִ קְ נֵהּו עָשָ ה סֻּכֹּת עַל ּכֵן קָרָ א שֵ ם הַמָ קֹום סֻּכֹות

Michael Wakelin Thank you very much. And Aliya would you read the English translation and give us the chance to select a word or phrase.

Aliya Azim He himself went on ahead and bowed low to the ground seven times until he was near his brother. Esau ran to greet him. He embraced him and, falling on his neck, he kissed him; and they wept. Looking about, he saw the women and the children. “Who,” he asked, “are these with you?” He answered, “The children with whom God has favored your servant.” Then the maids, with their children, came forward and bowed low; next Leah, with her children, came forward and bowed low; and last, Joseph and Rachel came forward and bowed low; And he asked, “What do you mean by all this company which I have met?” He answered, “To gain my lord’s favour.” Esau said, “I have enough, my brother; let what you have remain yours.” But Jacob said, “No, I pray you; if you would do me this favor, accept from me this gift; for to see your face is like seeing the face of God, and you have received me favorably. Please accept my present which has been brought to you, for God has favored me and I have plenty.” And when he urged him, he accepted. And Esau said, “Let us start on our journey, and I will proceed at your pace.” But he said to him, “My lord knows that the children are frail and that the flocks and herds, which are nursing, are a care to me; if they are driven hard a single day, all the flocks will die. Let my lord go on ahead of his servant, while I travel slowly, at the pace of the cattle before me and at the pace of the children, until I come to my lord in Seir.” Then Esau said, “Let me assign to you some of the men who are with me.” But he said, “Oh no, my lord is too kind to me!” So Esau started back that day on his way to Seir. But Jacob journeyed on to Succoth, and built a house for himself and made stalls for his cattle; that is why the place was called Succoth.

Michael Wakelin Thank you. Aliya.

Now, Miriam, would you like to share your short introduction?

Rabbi Miriam Lorie Yes. Well, the background to this starts at least 20 years earlier, probably more, when our two main characters here, Jacob and Esau, were twins in their mother's womb, and they fought so much that she had a very uncomfortable pregnancy and went to seek a prophecy, which told her that there were two nations inside her womb, and the older one will end up serving the younger one, the older one being Esau or ‘Esav’ in Hebrew, and the younger one being Yakov or Jacob. And then we skip a little bit further to the boys being presumably teenagers, and Jacob, encouraged by his mother, Rivka, Rebecca, tricks his twin brother out of his blessing that he's entitled to as the oldest child. And it's a really heart-felt scene, where his brother screams out in pain and vows to kill Jacob as soon as their father has passed away. So, Rebecca packs up Jacob and says, ‘run away. Go to my brother. He'll keep you safe and come back when all of this has calmed down’. But Jacob ends up living with his uncle, Laban, for 20 years, and in that time, marries four wives and ends up with, at this stage, 12 of his 13 children. And so 20 years have passed between this death threat and the scene that we're in now, with no phones, no email, no social media, and all of that simmering resentment and the memories, which you know could either die down or can boil up even more.

And I think you know as so often is the case when safety is involved, the passions are raised even higher. So, we're not quite sure what's going to happen when these two brothers meet again. Will it go well or will it not? And there's, I think, ambivalence in the text. I'm looking forward to exploring that together. One last thing, three things that happen before the text starts. Jacob has three strategies in approaching his brother. He sends gifts: number one. Secondly, he prepares to fight. So, he plans for the worst. He splits up his camp so if one side was killed, the other side might survive. And thirdly, he prays, and one of our commentators say that's a good threefold strategy for any problem in life, prepare for the best, prepare for the worst, and pray.

Michael Wakelin Thank you very much, and let's hear from you now, each one in turn, what word or phrase you've picked out, can I start with you Trey?

Reverend Trey Hall I have plenty

Michael Wakelin Ah, ‘not plenty of words’, that’s the phrase. Monawar?

Imam Monawar Moffet ‘Bowed’.

Michael Wakelin Okay. Adam.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet ‘Seeing your face is like seeing the face of God’.

Michael Wakelin Yes. Catherine

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle I also have ‘bowed’

Michael Wakelin Okay. And Aliya

Aliya Azim ‘My Lord's favour’

Michael Wakelin Okay. And Miriam

Rabbi Miriam Lorrie ‘Built a house for himself’.

Michael Wakelin Well, let's kick off with ‘bowed’ then, since that was a popular choice, so Catherine, do you want to start a conversation?

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle Yes, and it, in a way, links back to a previous conversation we've had about us being physical creatures and spiritual creatures, physical and spiritual. And I was just really struck reading this again, how he approaches humbly. So, whatever's going to happen, he's doing the humble thing. He's trying to make it work. And he bows low. And that may have been a difficult thing to do or not, and it might have been sincere or not, but I was just really struck. Because I think sometimes when you do the thing physically that you know you ought to do, it actually changes you in the process, and it becomes genuine, even if you didn't mean it to be genuine. So sometimes something in reconciliation is unthinkable, like extending your hand, but if you do it, you might think, oh, it works. Something good has happened. So, he bows low, which is a good sign. I think.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie And something I didn't say in the introduction is, that the night before this, he wrestled an angel and had been injured by it. So, he was limping, and so something in him was humbled or lowered, whether he chose it or not.

Michael Wakelin Monawar was that your reason for picking ‘bowed’?

Imam Monawar Hussain Well. It reminded me of, you know, every time I meet my father, I bow and I kiss his hand, you know. Or when I meet a spiritual guide or a teacher, an important, significant person. Out of humility and respect and veneration and honour of that person and the knowledge that they carry and the example they set, we bow down and kiss their hand. and for me, it's just like, if we did more bowing down and actually were a bit more humble and, had more humility, there are more chances of actually making friendships and reconciling differences than if we were proud and boastful and so on. So that's what touched me about that part.

Michael Wakelin It can be seen as a sign of weakness, can't it, bowing low before someone, so do you think that was partly …

Imam Monawar Hussain Sorry to interrupt Michael but, therein lies the power. You know, being a servant leader, as it were,

The Reverend Trey Hall I think we're being too generous to Jacob. Jacob is a cynical actor. He's a trickster. Whatever he's doing, he's doing it because it's a strategy. I don't know that there's any sincerity whatsoever in this gesture. He's not really changed his ways, has he? I think the end of the story is the most important part, which is that he says to his brother, now, having reconciled, great, we'll go back to your place. We’ll now build a life together. And Esau says, ‘Great, I'll go at your pace’ Esau does everything to be accommodating to Jacob. And Jacob says, ‘Oh, well, actually, we're going really slow, so I'll catch up with you. You go there.’ And then he ghosts him. He goes somewhere else entirely, and he never goes back. He never goes to see his brother. He betrays him once again.

Rabbi Adam Zaggoria Moffet I mean, it is interesting. Jacob is the trickster, and like we were talking about the Apostle Paul, I sort of identify with Jacob, you know I have been … There's this sense of talking about reconciliation and how we make amends for the things that we have done, wrong, right, how we repent, how we offer that. And I guess in Jewish and Christian life, there is a sense that it's not enough just to ask for forgiveness. There's this sense of like, I have to change something, right? And so even Jacob's gift, this is why I picked out, ‘I have plenty’ - his gift didn't seem to come from a place of.., it wasn't going to hurt him, right? You know, it was like this gift. After all, I've stole your birthright, I tricked you, but here I come. I've got plenty, but please take this gift. It wasn't anything that was going to actually affect him. It was just, it seems like, from the text, I've got plenty, but here's a gift for you. And I was wondering about true reconciliation and a repentance or a reparation that actually means something that actually requires a sacrifice. It's all well and good to sort of do diplomatic posturing, but am I changed in this effort of reconciliation?

Michael Wakelin Why is Esau so nice to him? Esau is always nice. Esau really gets the bad deal in the tradition, I think.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie I agree with you and our commentators just make him out to be so much worse than the text itself, completely unfairly. I think you're both being a little cynical.

Oh, tell us No. I mean, I hope we'll get into the text, but I one thing I’m in agreement with you is he doesn't apologise, and you would maybe expect that in a reconciliation scene. Or maybe not, you know, maybe it's actually sensible to sometimes not dig up the past. Maybe it's sensible to say, ‘Don't worry, I'll catch up with you’ and then quietly slip away. I don't know if I read it as he's never changed his ways, and he's just the old trickster he always was. I think he has changed actually, by whether the wrestling or the bowing down, the action of doing it. And I think there is some wisdom in a reconciliation, just not going too deep to the heart of things.

Michael Wakelin But he says, doesn't he, to Esau, it's like seeing the face of God, yeah, quite a compliment.

Rabbi Adam Zaggoria Is it? Again? I'm not sure that's so obvious. I really take Miriam's point - which is, you know, we don't really know how to read Jacob's motivations. They're famously quite opaque, and he is a trickster, but he does change and develop, and he's learned from his uncle who tricked him. You know that actually, he can't just get what he wants through deceit. But there's something strange to me about this, which I don't think we've mentioned, although we did hint at it in Miriam's introduction, which is the night before he had this transformative experience, he wrestled with a stranger who some, in our tradition, say is an Angel. Some say it's God. Some say it's actually his brother in disguise, whoever it might be. It's a confrontation, and his name has changed, which is always, you know, in the Hebrew Bible. Someone's name gets changed. Big flashing klaxon, that like this is significant. His name is changed to Israel, which, of course, is hugely significant to us, but it's not used here. The next morning, he goes back to being Jacob. Something has been incompletely transformed, and it's interesting to me as a result. He says it's like looking at God, because if you took the perhaps marginal opinion that he wrestled with God in some fashion the night before, some kind of spiritual wrestling out on the riverbank, then maybe he's getting reminded he's kind of caught in between. He's seeing that face and going, ‘oh wait, I'm supposed to be more than Jacob. I'm supposed to be Israel, I am supposed to be someone better’. But he doesn't quite rise to that. If it is the case, it feels like we're getting a window into his internal conflict more than seeing transformation completed.

Michael Wakelin Catherine,

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle Well, I'm just really fascinated by all of that. So, thank you very much. And the wrestling the night before has been interpreted in ages since hasn't it as wrestling with God. So, it was just to mention that, again, on meeting his brother it would seem beyond cynical, if that's just some sort of trick on his part. But it seemed to me, the text was saying there was something extraordinary in that meeting, just maybe that it happened, even if it wasn't fully recreative of their relationship.

Imam Monawar Hussain Well, I was just going to say, how often can we actually tell what the other person thinks through their body language? And I think that, for me, describes what's actually going on. And so less of the talk, but more of his behaviour and his body language, and that's communicating something of his sincerity. I'm not cynical.

Michael Wakelin Aliya, do you want to pick up on your thought, you chose ‘My Lord's favour?’

Aliya Azim Yes. So am I correct that this is Jacob telling Esau - yes. So there seems to be a lot of blessing if you do reconciliate. So that's something to be appreciated. And you know, even in our tradition, if there's a dispute and you cut off your relations, then your prayers won't be answered. And also, there's something important about that face-to-face interaction and building relationships take time, and the first step is to meet each other, so, that's probably why I chose that one.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie Yes, I do, actually, I never questioned it before. You asked who's saying that it is actually ambiguous who's speaking. I think probably the most obvious reading is that Jacob says, ‘to gain my Lord's favour’, but there is a potential reading that when he, whoever he is, says, ‘What do you mean by all this company which I've met?’ It's actually Jacob asking Esau, who were those 400 men who came ahead looking an awful lot like an army. And then Esau, maybe is also tricky, and says, ‘Oh no, they were just the welcome party’. They weren't soldiers at all. So, I think there is an ambiguity there. I'm really glad you pointed that out.

Reverend Trey Hall Esau seems like the one, again in the text, who's more affected, like he runs up crying, runs to him, throws himself on him. I mean, maybe this is just theatrics, too. I'm not that cynical, but it feels, I guess again, I might be psychoanalysing the text, which sort of is fun to do, but maybe not the most responsible way to do it, at least from a Christian point of view. But yeah, he feels affected to me, like in a good way. He kisses him. They weep, not just Esau, but..

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Esau has always been the more emotional of the two brothers, right? We saw that in the incident that precipitated this whole thing. And when you read, I mean, it's always really difficult, actually, for me to read Esau crying out, saying, ‘How unfair is this? Don't you have a blessing left for me, father.’ It's like it really is gutting, because he didn't do anything wrong, no.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle But it does get set up really powerfully. Then this text the potential of reconciliation, both in terms of risk - is that a welcome party or is it an army? You know.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Important difference.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle But it also shows the potential for a family being reconciled this wonderfully. Yeah, it really sets that out well, doesn't it?

Rabbi Miriam Lorie Our commentators say that even the kiss was ambiguous, that the kiss was a little bit of a bite.

Reverend Trey Hall These commentators are wonderful. I was going to ask we were talking earlier about Paul, the apostle in the Christian text, who famously experiences this conversion and sees his own sin, sees his own complicity with murder, and really changes. I was wondering about Jacob as this trickster, as you say, Adam, and he is the father of Israel, and the 12 Tribes come from him. So, what is that? Is it the presence of a flawed person who is the father of the 12 Tribes? Is that important in the text, like that? He is the flawed one? Yes that’s the question.

Rabbi Adam Zaggoria Moffet I mean, Genesis definitely is a naturalistic text when it comes to human characters, they are real people. They are complicated. They make mistakes. It's equally telling us what not to do by describing the behaviour of our ancestors as it is what to do. In terms of Jacob's transformation, I think he does. It's not quite finished now, right? There's more to the story. Later, some of his sons behave very badly, and he has to reckon with the fact that he doesn't actually support their deceit, and he gets really angry. And it's interesting to see Jacob on the other side of that equation. Throughout his life, he's in all these relationships with people where he has to learn not to use people. He has to learn to see people as people, and he doesn't, he doesn't learn it in a straightforward way, nor overnight. But this is part of that journey - him trying to figure out what the relationship is with Esau. I think, to say, you know, our ancestor, our namesake, is someone who's flawed and complicated, is actually really good, because when, in my mind, cultures have heroes who stand on this pedestal of romantic ideation, who have no flaws, who are, you know, totally unable to be questioned. It leads to a real breaking point. Whereas Jacob, we can criticise, right? And we do, we're comfortable criticising him and also appreciating him. It is both.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie There is another reading, like more traditional one, that everything he did was justified, (yeah), everything was because of that prophecy, and acting out that prophecy. So, I think we need to hold these intentions.

Imam Monawar Hussain Just like a bit of disagreement. We would never speak about the prophets in in the manner that is being spoken about - interesting. You know, for us, we do hold them up as on the pedestal, but also ‘masum’, being innocent.

Reverend Trey Hall Innocent. Is that what you said?

Imam Monawar Hussain Yes, yes. So, we honour them and yeah. So, it's slight disagreement there in the way we look at them.

Michael Wakelin Is Esau, honoured?

Imam Monawar Hussain I don't know about Esau, but certainly Jacob, yes, yeah.

Michael Wakelin Okay. I want to just, in view of time, come to Miriam's chosen phrase where you said ‘built a house’. What did you pick out on that?

Rabbi Miriam Lorie Well, it's based on the fact that for those 20 years, he's never had a home of his own. And he's actually never really had a home of his own. He ran away from his childhood house. He was kind of a pretty abused guest of Laban, Lavan, and now he's on the run again. And so, I kind of feel happy for him that he's got his own house now. It's Jacob. Jacob, yeah, and I read all of his actions in the context of this is a scared child who's never really had agency of his own.

Michael Wakelin Okay? Some sympathy there.

Reverend Trey Hall So generous. He's not a child anymore.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie And you’re the cynic

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle That goes back to everyone has their burdens they carry, and until you know that burden, you can't really understand motives. And yes…

Rabbi Adam Zaggoria Moffet I think I am a cynic, in the sense of, you're right, but I think I guess what I miss in this text is there's more to the story. It’s like, for me, change is about taking responsibility, and in this text, he doesn't really seem to, Jacob, you know. I'm all for …, I mean, lord knows…. This is why I identify with him. I really messed up in my life and abused some people, you know, and I need to take responsibility for that. And through loads of therapy and lots of prayer I have. So, I guess, that's what I was sort of saying, in this text he doesn't seem to take responsibility,

Rabbi Miriam Lorie Or maybe he's doing his best with a kind of incomplete toolbox. Maybe he is affected by the wrestle he had and the bowing down and the encounter. Maybe he is genuinely saying he sees God's face and his brother's face, but he's also got to take care of himself and his family and find some stability, and, you know, extricate himself into a non-conflictual situation.

Michael Wakelin In terms of our subject of reconciliation. What can we learn from this? What tools are in there for finding reconciliation? Adam?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet I think exactly where we started, which is, you know, you've got to both prepare for the best and the worst. It is actually a good example that he doesn't go into it with rosy tinted glasses about what might happen. He doesn't know what's going to happen. They haven't seen each other in a very long time. Last he heard his brother wanted to kill him, and he seems to be to his credit, and I should give him some credit. I've been a bit harsh on Jacob today. He is interested in finding a peaceful solution. He wants to try and do that. He does that first, right? He gives the gifts first, but he also is reserved. He's aware that he's at risk. He's making himself vulnerable. He keeps his most beloved family members back, and the other ones go first. And there's something there about actually recognising that reconciliation is a process that has ups and downs. It's not just a magic switch where you've had a conflict with someone, interpersonal or geopolitical or anything, and you just, you know, you say the right words and everything's better. It's, you know, two steps forward, one step back. And I think Jacob models that actually quite well.

Michael Wakelin Okay. Thanks very much. Let's turn to our reading from the Qur’an, which is found in The Family of Imran, and it's Surah three, verses 102-104 now, Imam Monawar, you're going to read the Arabic and then Trey, if you would read the English translation for us, to give us a chance to find a word or phrase that we are struck by. And then it's back to Monawar to introduce the text as well after that, so off you go.

Imam Monawar Hussain The Family of Imran 3: 102- 104:

102 You who believe, be mindful of God, as is His due, and make sure you devote yourselves to Him, to your dying moment. 103 Hold fast to God's rope all together; do not split into factions. Remember God's favour to you: you were enemies and then He brought your hearts together and you became brothers by His grace; you were about to fall into a pit of Fire and He saved you from it— in this way God makes His revelations clear to you so that you may be rightly guided. 104 Be a community that calls for what is good, urges what is right, and forbids what is wrong: those who do this are the successful ones.

English translation: Abdel Haleem

The Reverend Trey Hall ‘You who believe, be mindful of God, as is His due, and make sure you devote yourselves to Him, to your dying moment. Hold fast to God's rope all together; do not split into factions. Remember God's favour to you: you were enemies and then He brought your hearts together and you became brothers by His grace; you were about to fall into a pit of Fire and He saved you from it— in this way God makes His revelations clear to you so that you may be rightly guided. Be a community that calls for what is good, urges what is right, and forbids what is wrong: those who do this are the successful ones.’

Michael Wakelin We’ll come to your words or phrases in a moment, but, Imam, would you introduce it for us?

Imam Monawar Hussain Yes. Well, these verses feel especially poignant in light of the divisions and suffering that we witness in our world today. They begin with a call to mindfulness of God, a grounding invitation to live with awareness and reverence. Then comes a striking image, holding fast the rope of God all together without division. It's a powerful visual, many hands, one rope, a shared grip on something greater than ourselves. The passage then recalls a transformation. You were enemies and he brought your hearts together. The language is intimate, almost tender. It closes with a call to become a community that calls to good, urges what is right and resists what is harmful. It's a movement from the personal, to the communal, to the moral. And I wonder what it stirs in us to hear these words today.

Michael Wakelin Thank you very much. So, can I go around the table again and ask for the word or phrase that you want to concentrate on. Miriam?

Rabbi Miriam Lorie God's rope.

Michael Wakelin Yes, I had a feeling that might come up. And Trey.

Reverend Trey Hall Honestly, that was mine too.

Michael Wakelin Yeah. I think this reading does lend that very much. Yes.

Imam Monawar Hussain ‘Mindful of God.’ Taqwa.

Michael Wakelin Ah, okay, yes. And Adam?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet ‘Fall into a pit of fire.’

Michael Wakelin Okay. Catherine?

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle ‘His grace’

Michael Wakelin Yes. And Aliya?

Aliya Azim ‘Held fast to God's rope.’

Michael Wakelin Let's start with the ‘rope’. I think that does sort of leap out at us. Who wants to go first? Miriam?

Rabbi Miriam Lorie I'd love to know what the Arabic word is, and if there's anything else in the translation that you can draw out.

Imam Monawar Hussain Yes, yes. I mean, absolutely. I mean, that's the taqwa part, which is about a sense of perpetual God consciousness, it is really important. The robe is interpreted, certainly in the Sunni tradition, the Qur’an, the prophet, and I think the Imams in the Shia tradition. And it has a real sense of God's grace. You know, the rope is God's grace, because he's not only sent revelation, he has also sent a prophet and a messenger who is the role model, who models that. And the context of this revelation is Medina. It's in Medina, and the Aws and the Khazraj, the two tribes there, have basically been at war and conflict for a long time, and they've just completely exhausted themselves. So, it's not that they've come to any kind of reconciliation, but they've exhausted themselves. And then comes the prophet, and he unifies. So, in Arabia at the time, each tribe would have had their own stories of triumph over the other, their own stories of battles and so on. And so all of that has to be kind of put behind them in order to become one community and brothers and sisters and so that's a sort of bit of context there.

But certainly, in terms of the robe, this is the rope as a metaphor for the Qur’an and the Prophet and the Imams in the Shia tradition.

Aliya, you might want to add something.

Aliya Azim Yeah, definitely. So, the image of a rope shows steadfastness that you're connected, and it's connecting to God. So how are you going to hold on to that by following the teachings of the Qur’an and the Prophet and the Shias also include the Imams, so that's the sayings, actions, and tacit approvals of all of them. But, I've heard that this is also at the time when Moses came down and saw that people were worshipping the calf, the golden calf. And Moses asked Aaron, you know, why didn't you stop them? And he sort of gives this reply that he didn't want people to split into fractions. So, what you've said is also true. I've also heard it for that explanation as well. So, unity is really important.

Michael Wakelin Keeping everyone together.

Reverend Trey Hall It's a wonderful image, isn't it? I mean, it stuck for me, because it's this kind of visceral kind of thing. They’re stuck and unable to get out of the predicament. And this rope drops down from heaven, or later we find out it goes into the pit of fire that we're in. It's such a visual image of .., it's not.., I read it…, I think, in this work of trying to find unity, you will need something external, it's not just going to be you bringing your best humans. There will need to be some rope from heaven, you know.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie But it's not just God's thread. It's like a rope is made up of all these fibres knitted together, strong because of its twisted unity.

Reverend Trey Hall Exactly. So, the braid, the braids are, perhaps, I thought of that, sort of braids. Is that braids?

Rabbi Miriam Lorie Maybe that's the human aspect knitting together.

Reverend Trey Hall Love that.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet It's a really powerful image. And the pit of fire, I don't want to assume - but is that kind of conception like the Christian conception of hell, or is it something distinct? What does it mean when it says here you nearly fell in the pit of fire?

Imam Monawar Hussain Pit of fire through the enmity and the hatred in the war, (okay). And that would have, of course, ultimately lead them to destruction, okay? Because it's destruction, not just here, but in the al-Akhira, in the next life. And so, they're saved from that. And so that's what you know? Because there are, as we discussed in the other texts, that ultimately, on the Day of Judgement, you know, there is accountability for the right hand, and the harm that we might have done.

Michael Wakelin Is such an understanding in Islam that the pit of fire is, is sort of hell, eternal hell.

Imam Monawar Hussain Well, I mean, that's definitely, yeah, absolutely, there's heaven, and there's hell, and there is suffering in hell, but there's also, ultimately, God's forgiveness and salvation, but that's in the gift of God, and so it's really important just to kind of remember that there are the rights of God in us, and then there are rights of fellow human beings. And the rights of God, God, freely, through His grace, can forgive us, yeah, but the rights of fellow human beings who we've trespassed and harmed, they have to forgive us. If they don't, then you're not going to be forgiven.

Michael Wakelin Catherine picks up on the word ‘grace’, didn't you? Which is interesting.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle Yes, because there are links with Christian's idea of grace, and that actually lots of this is too difficult for us to do on our own. We can only do it by being channels of God's grace. But it was really interesting what you just said about God forgives, it’s in God's nature. But do people forgive as well? And people not forgiving is a sort of hindrance to that person being fully forgiven. God's forgiven them. But can that person.

Imam Monawar Hussain There's a tradition about their judgement to people arguing between themselves, and they're shown paradise. And I'm just sort of giving the gist of it. The tradition is that if you forgive each other -that's where you will go, paradise. We have to forgive each other. So, stop the quarrelling and the dispute between yourselves, and that will lead, so forgiveness being a really important component.

Reverend Trey Hall It's fascinating. I think I heard you say that even in the pit of hell, in the next life, that there still might be the rope of God that descends and there's forgiveness even in hell. Is that what I heard you say? God has the right to do that?

Imam Monawar Hussain Yes, absolutely. Those people who, even if you have an atom's weight of faith, or ‘Iman’ in your heart, you will be led out of the fire back into the water of life, the river of life. And then, of course, we have a long tradition of the intercession of the prophets, and then the Prophet himself.

Very Reverend Trey Hall Yes, so we're talking about justice and reconciliation. And I think Christians also have this sense. Some Christians are quite diverse, like Jews and Muslims, but sort of the sense that even after death, on the Day of Judgement, or on the time when we have to be accountable for our lives, that there is grace, even there. So, you know, it's not just to the point of death that we have to be open to God's grace - even post death. But I do wonder about this reconciliation, if there's not some future judgement or justice, if we aren't held accountable as individuals or as societies, for the stuff that we have done wrong - what does it mean to trust God? You know, if there's no final, gracious reckoning, if there's no final sense that someone is going to be responsible for, (that's not us), for making it all right,

Michael Wakelin I want to return to the rope, because Aliya picks up on that as well. And I think we've slightly embellished the text here, because we've talked about the rope being lowered into the pit of fire. It doesn't actually mention that at all, does it?

Rabbi Miriam Lorrie Reflecting on what Alia said, mentioning about the golden calf was really interesting to me, because as you said that is the Islamic understanding. Aaron doesn't get rid of it because he sees it's binding people together. It's a kind of rope. And it’s interesting to me that religion can be a rope for good and it can be a rope for bad. And sometimes that knitting together between people can actually be around a false idol or something that leads to real harm. And so, I just wanted to throw that idea out there.

Michael Wakelin Yes, why did you pick on rope Aliya?

Aliya Azim Because it an illusion of strength. You know, you look at a rope that somebody's holding the other end, and here are you trying to go up, and it's kind of upward because it's God's rope. It can only be vertical. And just going back to previous discussions about the animals and the creatures, man is the only creature with a vertical backbone, whereas all the other animals have a horizontal backbone. So, it's just that you're vertically going upwards, and one aspires to reach. We are the rope in some way, yes, yes, that's right. We are the reflection of trying to be God's attributes and be God like and merciful like God. We have a tradition that God has written mercy upon himself. So, in terms of reconciliation, forgiveness plays a huge role. And if we look at today's leaders, for example, Nelson Mandela, for example, forgave the people who mistreated him, and just looking at these values to reflect on and imbibe, really.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie It's very interesting that it's seen that we need some kind of grace from God in order to reconcile. That on our own our natural state is factions and we make enemies, and it's only because of God's favour that we could get over this. It feels in contrast to the Hebrew Bible text where it's really down to the humans to, you know, knock their heads together and sort themselves out.

Michael Wakelin I used to think Grace was a peculiarly Christian phrase, but it's obviously important to Islam anyway.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Oh yes, yes, and Judaism.

Reverend Trey Hall Yes, loving kindness.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie Oh, for sure, I think listening to our Muslim and Christian colleagues today and reflecting on how much Judaism puts it on us as humans to be kind of responsible for ourselves.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet There really isn't a notion of grace in this sense of something which is given freely from above. God forgives because there's a sense of God being merciful, and that's certainly shared, but there's a real sense that we've done something wrong. We have to make it right.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie We have free will to go and make the right choices. Yeah, and if we don't, that's not that's on us.

Reverend Trey Hall But you can't make it right completely. Right? I remember, there's an old tale. It doesn't matter. I was gonna tell a story. But you know, there are some things you can't make right? So, is that just ours to bear the fact that we sometimes wound people so deeply, individually or as institutions organisations that it can't be repaired?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet There are things I suppose only God can forgive that other people aren't capable of doing, and that's in the Jewish tradition, the idea of Yom Kippur and the concept of ‘kaparah’, of absolution. But the important difference is, there's not really a concept of sin in the same way, certainly not of an embedded original sin, you know, innate sense of sin. People, they start out as having a free choice, right? They start out as zero, and, you know, they have the ability to choose which path they go down. And, as a result, it's pretty easy to hold them accountable, because nothing's stopping them or preventing them or pulling them. The idea of a rope pulling them struck me. There's a common misconception when we translate Hebrew, the word ‘Tikvah’, which is used a lot, actually, in the Psalms ‘Kavah’, this is to hope for something, as it's translated in King James. It's actually the word for rope. ‘Tikvah’ and ‘Kavah’ is about a rope right? When you say hope on God, it doesn't mean sit around and wait for the best. It means grab this thing and twist it right? It's that action of twisting that makes a rope, a rope, that makes it strong. It's a very active sort of thing. And it strikes me as very similar here that you could see this. You know that when we hold fast to God's rope, is not a passive thing where you're just waiting around for grace to descend upon you. You got to do something. You got to grab it right? And if you don't, you're going to miss it.

Imam Monawar Hussain Absolutely. It comes back to the holding onto the rope and then relates, finally, towards the end, about action. So, it's not just, as you rightly say, a passive rope, but it's an active rope, which means you're actively seeking out the good, and you're actively seeking to protect from the harm. So, it's a promotion of, you know, what is good for the community, for the common good and stopping harm. And hence you're demonstrating, you're holding on to that rope of God.

Michael Wakelin Okay, just on the time, the word you picked out was ‘mindful’ - Monawar do you want to just focus on that?

Imam Monawar Hussain For me, it's hard to explain, it’s the heart of the religion and, it's a viewpoint. That is, ‘taqwa’, really is to nurture and still cultivate a deep sense of God consciousness. So that, when we act in the full awareness that God is watching us, then we will act in a different way. And so, it's to cultivate that sense of ‘taqwa’, and that's what it begins with. And in fact, that first verse is something I would recite in the sermon for the marriage. And so that's the foundation that flows from it, you know, holding on to the rope of God.

These are means, as it were, that enable us to reach the state of God of consciousness, or being aware of God at every moment. And that's what we aspire to. We're not going to get there, but potentially that's where we aim to be, that everything, all our action, all that we do, will be grounded in the full awareness that God is ever watchful upon us, and that we're in the presence of God at all times, because God is watching us everywhere. And so that should help us to be better Muslims, better human beings, better people in society.

Michael Wakelin So finally, to our Christian text, which is taken from the New Testament. We don't tend to read the passage in Greek, since most Christians don't use Greek in regular worship. So, Rabbi Adam, will you read the English translation so that we can select a word or phrase and then, Catherine, would you give your short introduction. So, Adam, over to you.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Luke 6 verses 27 to 36. But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again. Do to others as you would have them do to you. “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Michael Wakelin We’ll come to your words or phrases in a moment, Catherine, would you set the text in context,

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle Introducing this passage from St Luke's Gospel, I feel I may need an oxygen canister with me, because it goes really deep and takes us, indeed, to the heart of the Lord's Prayer. As a Christian, I've loved and wrestled with this text for the last 50 years. This is from the Sermon on the plane, which is paralleled with the Sermon on the Mount in St Matthew's Gospel, full of profound spiritual challenge and apparent paradox, Jesus is in the midst of his public ministry and His teaching and His healing people, and has attracted a great crowd. He's gone to the top of a mountain to pray and has chosen his 12 disciples. And now he comes down, so there's a kind of Moses parallel going on there. He comes down and he teaches. The Golden Rule pops up in this part of our teaching, that is shared by all the major religions: ‘do unto others as you would have them do to you’. So, this passage sets out Jesus's teaching about love and forgiveness. ‘Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you’. But surely this seems impossible against human nature and what about justice? What about pain and hurt? Yet this is the way and the pattern that Christians believe Jesus sets himself in his own life. This is the way of life that holds the promise of reconciliation and recreation with other people, with oneself and with God, but requires a lot of giving up, a lot of letting go. And what about justice? I look forward to us reasoning about this together.

Michael Wakelin Thank you very much. Can I go around the table again and ask for the word that or phrase that leapt out? Can I start with you Trey?

Reverend Trey Hall Expecting nothing in return?

Michael Wakelin Okay, yeah, and Monawar?

Imam Monawar Hussain ‘Listen’

Michael Wakelin And Adam?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet ‘What credit is that to you?’

Michael Wakelin Yes. And Catherine,

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle I've done it again, ‘listen’.

Michael Wakelin Okay? And Aliya

Aliya Azim ‘Do to others as you would have them do to you’.

Michael Wakelin And Miriam.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie ‘If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also.’

Michael Wakelin So, let's start with listen. Shall we then? Why did we pick up on listen? I wonder if it's for the same reason. Monawar?

Imam Monawar Hussain Well listen is, I think, so critical to establishing a good relationship, and if we're going to reconcile, we have to listen actively. And I often give that advice to young couples getting married, that really, if you want this relationship to work, you're going to have to listen to each other and not talk at the same time. So, for me, listening is the key to good relationships, to reconciling our differences, to trying to settle disputes. It's such a core and important skill to have. So hence, listen.

Michael Wakelin Two ears, one mouth. Catherine.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle I think also for Jesus, that that comes first, because this is going to be difficult to listen to. It's really hard to hear this kind of thing, and listening is at the heart of reconciliation, I think, listening to others, but also listening to oneself and trying to understand what can be kind of churning emotions, in situations that require reconciliation to understand ourselves better and listen to ourselves, as to others, to listen to others and to God.

Michael Wakelin Okay. Trey ‘expecting nothing.’

Reverence Trey Hall Well, Jesus shows us, so Christians believe, a God who is endlessly giving, who is giving upon giving, upon giving. The nature of God is to give without expectation. God needs nothing. So, God is able to give. And this, Jesus is seeming to say, is not only God's life, but the challenge is that this would be our life, even though, as Catherine has said, it hits against all of this requirement to surrender and let go of our identity, our ego, our defensiveness, all that stuff. So, it feels quite radical. So radical that some interpreters from the early reformation said that this was actually written by Jesus, or said by Jesus to prove it was impossible, that you know, this wasn't possible for humans, only for Jesus. Other Christians have said, actually, this is possible only, though, as we seek after the image and likeness of God, that we might model that. So, it's a Whoa. It's, you know, hard, but, the radical ethics of those who Christians say they follow is this kind of God.

Michael Wakelin I wonder. Jesus is often described as a rabbi, and people have said to me that actually didn't really say anything very original, is there stuff here that's resonant with the Judaism he grew up from?

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Yes and no, it's interesting, because the golden rule, right, which we referenced, the only place it occurs in this formulation is actually in the teachings of Hillel, who was an early rabbi, and one of those who would have been influential in Jesus's life, in the school that he studied in. And it's interesting that that makes its reappearance here, but he interprets it in a different way. He takes, you know, what is hateful to your fellow don't do. Actually, you have to go above and beyond to do good to those who are hateful to you, which is, I don't think, something that any Jewish text would endorse. Actually, the idea that you actually have to pray for those who abuse you, and that you have to offer yourself up to be hurt, that you're obligated to give up what you have - I think that's the first half of this is really hard to square with any kind of Jewish teaching. The second half I have, maybe Miriam feels differently, but I have more questions with, which is the rhetorical question that's being asked, which is, you know, you can't only do good things when it's easy for you. That I can hear and I can see in that the kind of rabbinic method of Socratic teaching, of saying, ‘Listen, what does it mean to do good and to love people and to lend to people, when actually you're not taking any risks, you're not making any sacrifices, those people already love you. You know they're gonna pay you back. You're not putting anything on the line.’ That rhetorical pursuit, I can definitely see as being out of the rabbinic school that Jesus emerged from and rooted in that verse, in the middle verse 31, but everything that comes before it. I find really hard.

Michael Wakelin So, Miriam, you picked out ‘if anyone strikes you’. So, did you pick that out deliberately because it was uncomfortable?

Rabbi Miriam Lorie Yes, very much. So, yeah, as Rabbi Adam was saying, a lot of this feels quite anti Torah to me. You know, in the Torah, it says if someone strikes someone else, this is the punishment, or if someone takes someone else's garment, this is how much they repay, not give them the rest of your outfit. So, it feels very challenging to me. I wonder why? Yeah, you know, so much of the Torah legislation is for justice, so how do you square this with a system of justice?

Michael Wakelin Catherine? Do you want to respond to that?

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle No, I absolutely accept that, which is why, as a Christian, I've wrestled with this for 50 years, but I think that one of the answers is: this is what Jesus did, Jesus in His crucifixion was hit and he didn't retaliate. Jesus, at his crucifixion, had his garments taken from him, and he didn't retaliate. So that's how he behaved. And Christians are called to be Christ like and try and make sense of that. And this might be dodging it, really, but I think what I try to do, and what I advise others, is practice this in small matters, because when we start thinking about, well, the world as it is today, then it gets really, really difficult, but in our own lives, we can maybe start practising this in small matters. And if someone's done us a disservice, taking the slap metaphorically, then we don't seek retribution, or we forgive them. And I think there's a thing about not letting other people's bad behaviour affect our good behaviour. So, I'm going to do the right thing, whatever they do. I'm not going to not do the right thing. I'm not going to let my character and actions be determined by someone else's bad behaviour. So, I'll keep doing the right thing, and even if they behave badly, I'll keep doing the right thing as far as I can.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie When they go low, we go high.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle Yeah, she was brilliant with that - Michelle Obama - quoting that all the time.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet Yes, like not taking retribution. I totally hear you say, ‘You know what, someone's hurt, you don't bear a grudge. Don't take retribution. Move on.’ I can absolutely see the spiritual value of this, I think is much harder if someone's hurt you to go get hurt some more, right? Go, turn the other cheek - so they can hit you again. That seems, much harder to forgive.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle It's much easier to interpret metaphorically, sure, so yes, because there can be a real dignity and stature in someone doing something to you or say speaking an untruth about you, and rather than trying to set that right and speaking an untruth about them, just thinking they can do it again, it doesn't matter. It's not going to happen. There's a kind of dignity, sort of claiming, this is my identity. I'm not going to let other people's bad behaviour affect it.

Michael Wakelin Monawar wants to come in, sorry Trey.

Imam Monawar Hussain It's so fascinating, isn't it? In Islam, we have the sense that, you know, seek out justice. But there's also, if you've been wronged by somebody, there is that choice of forgiveness, actually forgiving them. And what came to mind was when the Prophet was stoned in Ta’if, and he prayed for the people. He prayed for their guidance. So, there are both sets of examples, so it's somewhere in the middle, but these are challenging. But I think religion and faith itself - to follow this path is challenging in itself, because it wants to make us better human beings. And to become better means forgiveness, and does mean sometimes to kind of walk, you know, in the Qur’an, God says, you know, if you come across an ignorant person, I meet someone who's being unpleasant to just say, ‘Salaam’ and off you go. Just leave him be, peace and go. Don't get into arguments and stuff. So, we see a bit of both.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle I remember hearing a story of a woman the other day who said she had borne a grudge against a woman all her life. It was something to do with what had happened at school, and she couldn't actually remember the incident, but she remembered the grudge, and that she'd born this grudge all her life. And there is something isn't there, that in not forgiving someone, we actually damage ourselves?

Imam Monawar Hussain I think you're absolutely right.

Michael Wakelin Trey wanted to come in.

Reverend Trey Hall I was just going to sort of echo some of the concerns, and just to be honest about this text and others in the New Testament - they have been used to justify all kinds of things: staying in marriages or relationships that are physically or emotionally coercive, abusive. So just to pay attention as to the history of interpretation and texts can be used to wound and also used to liberate. So I just think about the echo chamber of our discourse in society right now, and thinking of a particular president who makes his livelihood by putting out foul stuff into the world in terms of legislation, and sort of also just what's on his Twitter feed, or whatever his social media is, and just thinking about what's the best way to disable that? And I guess there are lots, maybe, like Jacob, we should have lots of strategies, but one way is just to sort of the hope that by your own spiritual kind of rootedness and your own growth that you might be able to say thank you, but no, thank you. You know, sort of just not be moved by the ridiculousness of a petulant. So, I just think it's tricky, but what would it be like to be so rooted in love and not love that sort of falsely, but forgivingly. A love that's so strong that your identity is not based on someone's calling you a bad name or, you know, doing horrible things.

Michael Wakelin The way Mandela reacted, possibly.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle Yeah, and that whole history of non-violence, it takes the most incredible courage and strength to pursue a policy of non-violence, and of course, it seemed to be foolish by many people and a waste, but how really morally strong it can be. You're quite right. All of this can be really used.

Michael Wakelin That should lead naturally into Aliya's point ‘to do unto others’. Would you like to talk about that?

Alia Azim Yeah. I mean, I think that's something that all our faiths preach, and something that we could all share and agree upon, really, because perhaps we might not agree with turning the other cheek, perhaps, but we can always agree that, you know, we should behave in a way that others will receive your behaviour the way that you would. Yeah, and again, being merciful, that overwhelming mercy that God has, you know. He provides food and care for people who don't even agree with him. Or, you know, look at that overwhelming mercy and perhaps learn from that.

Michael Wakelin So, shortly, I want a couple of people to volunteer to sum up what we've learned about reconciliation from the texts that we've been studying together. But any more thoughts, specifically on the Christian text, ‘love your enemies’. Is that something that resonates in other faiths. Was that a fairly fresh bit of teaching?

Aliya Azim It certainly wouldn't resonate in Islam, we would sort of move away and ask God not to be merciful on your enemies. We have a concept ‘Tawalla’ and ‘Tabarru’ like and that would be to not curse them, but it means, may God not have mercy on them, right?

Imam Monawar Hussain Yeah, that's really interesting one, isn't it?

Michael Wakelin Withdraw your mercy from them?

Imam Monawar Hussain I mean, I come from a Sufi tradition as well, and so we would, the worst of our enemies, you would want to pray for them, for guidance, may God guide them, because I think there's a beauty in someone actually seeing the wrong in their actions, what they're doing. And so that sense of guidance, that God guide them so that they can understand that what they're doing, the harm they're causing, or whatever, is not right, and for them to recognise and come to a prayerful understanding. So, a prayer for the worst of your enemies - because the Qur’an does say those who are your enemies today might be your best friends tomorrow.

Michael Wakelin So, Catherine.

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle And for Christians, Jesus says at his own crucifixion, ‘Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.’ So, he's actually praying for the people who've crucified him and saying they don't understand the significance.

Imam Monawar Hussain It's very interesting. You mentioned that because we have a story of great Sufi Mansur Al Hallaj. And you know, I want to be clear, not everyone's going to accept Mansur Al Hallaj teachings, but you know, he was crucified, and when he was being crucified in a very, you know, horrific way, he prayed for the people. He said ‘They're doing this because they do not know’. And God said, ‘Please forgive them’.

Reverend Trey Hall This doesn't always go down well with Christians themselves. So, I remember, as a very young minister preaching on this text the week after 9/11 and in a Christian congregation, and let me tell you, it did not. I probably wouldn't preach on this text now as a 49-year-old minister, but it didn't go well. So, I think it goes back to this whole idea of like, yes, people are happy for Jesus to do that, but if it means us doing it, it's maybe a step too far. You know, for some folks, probably bad pastoral practice - as a 24-year old minister. But there we are,

Michael Wakelin Okay. I wonder if anyone's going to be brave enough. I'm not looking at Adam necessarily, but whether you'd like to think of a way of bringing some of our thoughts together, and maybe someone from another faith too.

Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet The only thing I can possibly think connects these, and I'm sure there's more, but it would require more thought, is ‘intentionality’. I'm looking, I'm trying to move past the striking the cheek thing and, looking in particular at the end of that passage. And the idea that actually, you expect nothing in return. You do things for the right reasons. You do good because it's good. And the way to demonstrate that is to reconcile with people you don't like. Doing good to people you like doesn't really mean the same as doing good when it's not easy. And I think that links, perhaps in many ways, certainly, to the story of Jacob and Esau, where Jacob had to really push himself. Clearly, whether he succeeded or didn't succeed, I think is an open question, but he pushed himself to do something that wasn't easy, because it was important and because it was right. And I think the same is true probably in the example the Qur’an - it brings about these factions who've been fighting with each other, the easier thing is to continue fighting, the harder thing is to stop and try and recognise how you can get out of that and the intention, even if it's never fully realised, of moving past division and debate and our enemies, and this side and that side. And trying to get to a different level of engagement with other people, is probably a worthwhile basis for reconciliation. It doesn't necessarily provide strategies, but maybe there's an ideological base of what it is that we're trying to do, which is just to get away from the antithetical me versus you and get to something different.

Rabbi Miriam Lorie I think something that unites all three texts is a tension between peace and justice . And I think there is a tension in the world between peace and justice, and I've always followed peace builders, particularly in the Middle East. And someone said to me recently, there's nothing more controversial now than peace, which upset me so much, because I think so much there's the idea that before peace can come justice. And I actually think all three texts push against that idea and say, ‘No’, we have to prioritise peace and reconciliation, even if that means like, not dealing with the real issues head on, like Jacob and Esau, or like, you know, in the New Testament, you know, there's, there's a kind of refusal of justice to say we're going to just go the way that leads to peace, and even if that means accepting suffering along the way. So, I don't have any answers, but I hope that we can, in the balance between peace and justice, weigh peace a little more heavily.

Michael Wakelin Amen to that. Thank you so much, and thanks to all of you for taking part in this and for giving us your time. And I want to thank the team individually. Imam Monawar Hussain, Aliya Azim, Reverend Trey Hall, Reverend Catherine Ogle, Rabbi Miriam Lorie and Rabbi Adam Zagoria Moffet. Thank you all so much for being with us. I'm Michael Wakelin and until next time, goodbye.

This has been a TBI media production for The Open University, under the direction of Dr. Jessica Giles, the executive producer is Michael Wakelin, producer Sarah Baker, and editor Mark Pittam.

Text transcribed by Dr. Jessica Giles with the assistance of Otter AI, 1 August 2025.